Legacy has been shown to be one of the most popular formats amongst players even after it essentially lay dormant for quite a few years. Lately there has been a lot of discussion regarding reprinting some cards to make the format more affordable, as well as talk of a new format that might just step in and take over for Legacy. While speculation is always fun, it would seem we have less control over those factors. Instead, what may be a little healthier speculation involves the banned list for the format.
Outside of the printing of new cards, alterations to the banned list are the number one way for the format to evolve. While we have a pretty healthy format currently, I think ultimately we should be trying to get Legacy to a point with as few banned cards as possible. This allows people a format where as many of their cards are legal as possible, and even as a full 4 of.
I am under the opinion that only those truly degenerate cards should be banned in this format. Moxes and Ancestral Recalls would obviously make things a little too crazy. Unbannings don’t make this format closer to Vintage by the way. Things like Earthcraft have not seen Vintage play in forever, so in actuality, they would give Legacy more of its own identity. As for the fun part…? Let’s discuss the cards that I feel could safely be removed from the banned list and their potential impact on the format.
Black Vise
Black Vise would have a much bigger impact in Legacy than it has in Vintage but that isn’t saying much, as it has been pretty non-existent there. Black Vise would help out quite a few of the budget aggro lists, like Mono-Red, although even there it would not be a staple.
While Black Vise is good against the pure control decks, there are very few of those that exist. Instead, most of the control decks are also trying to pull off some sort of combo and are rarely holding 6 or 7 cards at all times. Once you factor in that there are still things like Force of Will in the format, it quickly becomes apparent that a turn 1 Black Vise isn’t even game over like it used to be.
Artifacts and enchantments already have a bigger impact in Legacy than any other format sans Vintage, meaning that adding another one to the format only encourages players to react and begin to maindeck answers to these permanents. Things like Qasali Pridemage and Engineered Explosives are already starting to see play, so non-blue decks have answers to a Vise, even though it is not as scary for those decks as ones holding counterspells.
Hermit Druid
Hermit Druid has been used to do degenerate things in the past, but I don’t feel that is automatically the case these days. Once active, it can do things like set up an entire Dredge combo or some reanimator combo involving Sutured Ghoul for example, but that requires a lot of things to go right.
First of all, in order to maximize Hermit Druid, you are talking about a deck with no, or at the most 1, basic land. This means a deck that is very weak to cards like Wasteland, Back to Basics, or even Price of Progress. Players understand that nonbasics are one of the key components of Legacy and are therefore prepared to handle them.
Beyond that, Hermit Druid itself is a pretty fragile creature. A 2 mana 1/1 is hardly scary and it dies to every piece of removal in the format. On top of that, it always has summoning sickness and then requires a green to activate afterward, meaning some mana denial has the chance at keeping it dormant. Even if the Druid read “win the game” I think it could be kept in check. That said, it most certainly doesn’t say that, and instead requires the player to win through means that are already being attacked hard in Legacy; the graveyard.
This means that aside from all the removal in the format already dealing with Druid, we now get to add in cards like Tormod’s Crypt and Ravenous Trap as answers to the combo. This makes the combo more fragile than just casting an Entomb, which was unbanned some time ago now. Druid is no more threatening than Goblin Lackey is, and that is far from being banned.
Grim Monolith
This is one of the cards that borders the line between safe and absurd. If the format were to stay the exact same as it is now, Grim Monolith would not be noticed as an unbanned card. However, to think that the format would not update with a large scale unbanning is crazy. This may be a catalyst to see something like Mono White Stax, or even MUD take over as a tier 1 deck.
While combo decks could potentially use this, they already do not play the full suite of Rituals that they have available and Grim Monolith only adds a single colorless mana when used traditionally. Combos like Power Artifact are hardly degenerate these days, so something along that line of thinking is not reason enough to keep this on the banned list.
Instead of producing degenerate game states, I am leaning towards the position that the unbanning of Grim Monolith would just allow other archetypes to rise up and be a legitimate part of the metagame. If nothing else, I feel a “test” run similar to Flash back in 2007 is a worthwhile endeavor. If the card works its way into legitimate archetypes that are good but not insane, it is worth keeping off of the banned list. If that line is crossed however, the card can be rebanned pretty easily. Grim Monolith has not seen play in any format for a very long time, so it would be interesting to see how it would be used these days.
Worldgorger Dragon
With the rise of Reanimator decks in Legacy, we have been able to expose the graveyard based mana cheat decks as good but beatable, and that is exactly where Worldgorger fits in. Yes there are the nut draws of [card]Entomb[/card] into [card]Animate Dead[/card], but even then, you are still needing some way to abuse all of that mana you have.
[card]Worldgorger Dragon[/card] effectively turns a reanimator strategy into a 3 card combo, meaning it might not even see play if unbanned. I cannot imagine any Worldgorger Dragon combo deck being more powerful than a traditional reanimator list. It may be used as another option in those decks, but that is hardly worth it keeping its banned status.
Ultimately this one seems like a no-brainer. The creatures that we have available to bring back from the dead are good enough that we can ride them to victory all alone as opposed to needing a 3rd element that allows us to win on the spot.
Land Tax
Land Tax is one of those cards that has a lot of room for exploration. As of right now there are only two real uses for the cards, assuming it were to be unbanned. The first is the least likely, and that is in some type of Goblin Charbelcher combo deck.
Cards like Mana Severance are currently unbanned and they are still not enough to get Charbelcher over the hump. Land Tax takes a lot more time to get to work properly and it also needs to be found on turn 1 in order to be at its best. Plus, once again we have the fact that it is an enchantment, making it vulnerable to hate once players begin to include such cards in their maindecks.
The other option is to include Land Tax in an aggro deck that looks to abuse extra lands in its hand. What this is to fuel can be left up to the deck builder, but there are a lot of possible avenues. Even something like Wild Mongrel or Psychatog could benefit from a Land Tax. Not something that is truly degenerate though, meaning this is no reason to keep the card banned.
There is the possibility of the card seeing play in some new and innovative way, but I have a hard time seeing that way as being too good that it deserves to be banned. Basic lands in and of themselves are not very threatening, meaning it really is the “draw 3″ function that would put Land Tax over the top. But again, I don’t see the card being over the top, especially considering you need ways to make Land Tax trigger in the first place.
Earthcraft
The main reason this is currently on the banned list is a little enchantment out of Odyssey in Squirrel Nest. While this may have once been an unbeatable combo that made plenty of players frustrated, in the current Legacy format, the combo would probably not even see play, much less be a powerhouse.
While the combo is actually pretty easy to set up, as Enlightened Tutor grabs both pieces, one G/W Enlightened Tutor deck already exists in enchantress, which is ultimately most likely just going to be better than Squirrelcraft. Everything from Engineered Plague to Pithing Needle to Ghost Quarter is able to stop the combo from happening and those are more refined answers. Classic cards like Force of Will or Krosan Grip still provide generic answers to this, and many other combos on this list.
As newer and more powerful cards continue to be printed, old school combos like Squirrel Nestcraft just become to underpowered to matter much anymore. Unbanning them just allows for some new decks to emerge, but I would hardly worry about them being overly dominant.
Illusionary Mask
Here is another card that seems to be a relic of the past. There was a time when sneaking a Phyrexian Dreadnought into play was just about the best thing you could do for 3 mana, but power level erratas or unerratas have changed all of that.
In fact, for just 2 mana, and an equal 2 card investment, you can get that exact same outcome by using a Stifle on your Phyrexian Dreadnought. In fact, with Stifle you even get a card that has other uses outside of the combo, making it almost strictly better. For the same 3 mana, you could even upgrade to Trickbind, making the combo “more or less” uncounterable, as players rarely look to counter the Dreadnought, instead looking to get a 2 for 1 out of the deal when they counter Stifle.
Basically, Illusionary Mask has been made obsolete by changes in the errata of cards and it would be hard pressed to see any play if unbanned, much less be some unstoppable force in Legacy. By taking it off the ban list, you allow collectors to gain some of their value back from the card and give aspiring deck builders another option to build with. None of these are bad things and just look to make Legacy that much better
If any of the above cards were to prove to be too powerful (and I doubt they will) it is within Wizard’s power to simply reban the card. While I do not think it is a good habit to simply unban and reban cards over and over as test subjects, I feel like all of the above cards are safe to remove as it currently stands. Obviously unbanning Sol Ring just to see how it plays out is a bad move as you are approaching the unbanning from the wrong side of the fence.
Basically, if a card has to prove that it is not that powerful (as is the case with Sol Ring) it is probably better to leave it on the banned list. But if a card needs to prove that it is still powerful, I am fine with giving it that chance. With the evolution of card design, deck design, and player skill, many of the formerly banned cards, including all of the above, have just been passed by. It is only fair to give them a second chance, even if most of them will not be able to prove themselves competitive during that chance.
Legacy as a format should have as few banned cards as possible to allow players to have as many options as possible. This is the face of Legacy and also partly its allure. Keep Legacy optimal by allowing the format to be dictated by the player base and the metagame, and not the banned list. Thanks for reading.
Conley Woods
Another card worthy of unbanning: Skullclamp.
Creatures these days have more than 1 thoughness, so Skullclamp doesn’t turns into a engine by itself. Even then, the aggro decks that could use it would still be weak to combo as by the time the aggro deck can get extra cards it would probably be dead. At best it would be relevant in aggro mirrors or against some control decks, and it’s useless against a countertop lock.
Always nice to see a Legacy article. 🙂
Mind Twist also probably can come off the banned list. It’s not as good as Hymn is, and Hymn is only played in a few decks in Legacy.
I’d love to see Oath of Druids off the list too, but that’s probably almost a one card combo in Legacy given the creature-driven format. Besides, it’s not like the format is lacking in ways to cheat monster creatures in play as is.
Other cards like Goblin Recruiter or Time Spiral wouldn’t be all that broken, but I’d rather see DCI slow-roll the unrestricting to allow the metagame to digest and absorb new powerful combo pieces over time instead of in one big gulp.
Decent article, but I doubt that Wizards will unban anything before GP Columbus. After GP Columbus they could let loose some of these cards, but the format is so good right now they shouldn’t change it until after the event.
When discussing B&R, you have to distance yourself from what the cards did traditionally. Earthcraft is probably more powerful in some sort of combo deck like Elves than it is with Squirrel Nest.
Hermit Druid probably makes Survival of the Fittest fastest to be a real deck again. I don’t know if this is a good thing or not.
It’s sort of sad how neutered Mask is. I think they probably would have unbanned it before but the B&R committee either didn’t know of the errata or just wanted to distance the errata and the unban for PR reasons. Now that the creature can get countered, it’s embarrassingly bad.
None of these cards are ridiculous to suggest the way Skullclamp is, but I think you need to take more care when discussing unbanning cards. Legacy is so stable and active and beloved, it would really suck to accidentally kill it. The “unban things for a cycle just to see” had a really negative impact on Vintage when they unrestricted Flash. The real problem with making these arguments is people start with the low hanging fruit. Cards like Illusionary Mask are probably not going to affect the format at all, which means it probably isn’t worth the risk. I don’t know what value the format gains by unbanning chaff.
This article has good insight, but after reading it, I wonder how much unbanning these cards WOULD do to the format. You make the argument that they are not powerful enough to be on the banned list anymore, and if some cards (like Illusionary Mask) would be ‘hard-pressed to find play’ and other cards have supplanted current banned ones in combos, then how much effect will these cards have on the format?
Basically, you’re saying to unban these cards because they aren’t broken and probably not even optimal to use anymore. But if they are suboptimal, nobody will use them and they’re basically good as banned.
I’m not sure who codes your website but it would be nice if the pics shrunk on mouseout. it’s annoying to have to scroll down to another pic and mouseover it so that i can scroll back up to read the text that was covered by the enlarged pic. Great article though, agreed on all counts.
@ Aaron
My pics do scroll down when you leave them with the mouse…
@ Iligit
A card not being good is no reason to leave it banned. Even if not a single card on here saw play post unbannings, they should still be removed. Legacy is a format of options, and it is therefore beneficial to the players to have as many options as possible. If cards were supposed to be punished for being unplayable, Magic would be a much more boring game.
First turn black vise is simply ridiculous against any deck – think of it as a colourless wild nacatl with haste… Against blue decks it’s pretty much game over if it resolves on turn 1, as the first spells they tend to play are cantrips.
Vs. ANT or Belcher when you can go off on turn one and win the game. I guess three damage is more significant than a game loss.
I dont agree that unbanning cards gives you more options, but rather it will do the opposite. As mentioned in the article, some of these cards would fit good into allready powerfull strategies. leaving all strategies that are not boosted by unbannings behind.
Grim monolith into turn 1 smokestack is no fun, neither does reanimator need an option to go infinite, isn’t turn 2 Iona enough?
As for Black wise, it hates on a deck type that is practically non-existent in legacy atm. while it might be a fun card, it would definitely make sure that landstill will not be tier 1 ever again.
Ya like Wizards will listen to any of this. Doug Linn has written many articles stressing the unbanning cards and only a few have been unbanned since he had written a few with some unexpected few. I have yet to see more action on Wizards part to unban a few other valid cards. Yet by the time any of those cards are unbanned, you would had already eaten more buckets of shit and drank more wheatgrass in your life than any other girl scout on the planet.
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No mention of Necropotence? It would be interesting if that at least came back to the format as a restricted card. There’s enough enchantment hate floating around due to CB that it would not necessarily have free reign.
@ marc
Necro is way to powerful (even as a one of) and I much prefer it if they keep legacy smooth by not restricting anything.
I agree with your article, although hermit druid is too good and so is the monolith. When druid was released in classic it was dominating the queues even after oath was released it was still winning a higher percentage than oath.
What I am trying to say, is that if druid was format defining in classic it will be defining in legacy.
Probably the most relevant use of Land Tax is with Scroll rack, which wasn’t mentioned.
I’m unsure if this makes it ban worthy, but it is definitely a very powerful combo.
I don’t know enough about Legacy to knowledgeably comment on anything here, but I do know that I don’t want to play any format in which Illusionary Mask is legal. I have no clue what that card does and frankly don’t want to have to learn, since it seems to change at least once every 2-3 years.
The reason Land Tax won’t be unbanned is not because of the power level of the card. It’s because it creates game states that warp game play where neither player can play a land.
Really? How much fun was it to sit there and discard until you had a disenchant. Also with the way artifact mana is (Diamond/Chrome) it’s easy to break the symmetry of the card.
Roman Candle or RackTax was a sick deck. Ask Chapin. I remember when him and EDT first played the deck back in 1.5 at a MI PTQ.
It was WW/Burn that drew up to 13 cards a turn for 1 mana.
I wonder what would happen if Gush was unbanned?
About the best reason I can think of to unban some of these broken cards is that entomb is already unbanned and that is a very powerful card in a very powerful deck, so why not let others get a chance? Besides, in a vacuum it is probably hard to compare gush to entomb. You sort of have to see the games played out before you can compare card power level.
I don’t see the point of this article. Nothing was said here that hasn’t been said many times, in ridiculously exhaustive detail, in a dozen B/R list threads on dedicated Legacy boards. The whole article just has this “phoned-in” feel, like it was written on a deadline after the first idea was rejected.
People don’t play things that could abuse Skullclamp because Skullclamp is banned. If you unbanned it, I assure you, silly things would happen. People are playing larger creatures currently because it makes sense to play larger creatures. If they had access to Skullclamp, someone would make a broken engine using it. Elves comes to mind.
Todd: Exactly. Now ML is running tourneys of the Tempest+ Extended format rumored with no banned cards. Elves with Skullclamp dominates the field.
@javert. Skullclamp… are you serious. Affinity is already a good deck don’t put it over the top. Affinity is a broken deck if it has access to skullclamp. The reason people don’t play that that many 1 toughness dudes is because the clamp is banned, but that would definately change if it was unbanned
I would like to see Frantic Search unbanned. I don’t think that card is too powerful for Legacy. It requires work to abuse.
The fact that legacy is growing in popularity leads me to think that they shouldn’t be messing with the banned list. That being said I agree with your choices. Minus the hermit Druid and wgd. Hermit Druid might as well read tap: win the game. That is just too nuts to introduce into the format. And with entomb unrestricted, wgd may just be better than Iona in reanimate, winning that turn. With reanimate as powerful as it is, other decks might not like pretty consistant turn 2 kills. The diversity of the field is bringing in people, so let’s not give choice decks an overwhelming advantage.
Hmmm vise might be pretty brutal as well since kiln fiend is silly.
@ tristan- I play Classic regularly and have been for the past year, bit before Oath was released and Hermit fukin Druid has never in its life dominated any queues.
As long as they don’t do it a few days before a Grand Prix (ala Flash debacle), I could care less if they unbanned the majority of these. I don’t agree with Hermit Druid though. It’s not that it’s hard to disrupt, it’s just sooo fast. Sure it uses the graveyard and uses a cheesy 1/1 dude, but it’s also usually 2nd turn and that’s scary. I would rather not have one more “must counter” type card in the format. Lacky, Vial, Ad Nauseum, and the like are bad enough without worrying about another one.
Black vise is another that really should just stay on that list for reasons aside from power. It’s probably not all that strong now, thought it would most definitely see play. Not all people who come to these tournaments play well tuned Legacy decks playtested to high heaven. Some are normal joes who built their deck and wanted to try it out at the local store. Black Vise is not fun, at all. Not one bit. It’s about as bad as getting a Humility dumped on you from a control deck, getting most of your spells countered by a mono-U, or everyone’s least favorite, the Tendrils kill. People hate cards like that and Black Vise was always a proponent of fun killing. Don’t know if you played back then, but Vise Age was a seriously mean deck and sucked to play against. It’s a shoddy reason, but I’m a large fan of anything that keeps attendance up.
I think the arguments for unbanning many of the cards on the legacy ban list are valid if tested properly beforehand. I can’t really say anything about the power level of the cards in question because I haven’t played in a legacy environment where they were legal.
@Dahcmai I think adding a “must counter” card isn’t exactly as backbreaking as you make it out to be. Lackey and Vial are by no means “must counter” cards regardless of the format. Ant, dredge, reanimator, and zoo all certainly can outpace a lackey or a vial. Leaving countertop the odd man out of that group but countertop has multiple ways to deal with a lackey or vial. Decks should be able to answer a turn two 1/1 regardless. Decks evolve to answer new threats and I don’t see a 1/1 with no protections to be exactly as broken as you make it out to be, even with the possible turn two-three win ramifications. Pre side board, most decks aim to either establish board position or combo off before turn three anyways so it seems to be a moot point to argue that a turn 3 win is “too good.” Druid is a wimpy 1/1 green which really only has protection when paired with blue, which speaks more to the power of force and daze rather than the power of druid. But then what are we, BGu dredge?
On your second point, would that argument not also be applicable to any tier one deck in legacy? Most normal joes aren’t walking around with a tier 1 legacy deck, which with the exception of dredge can cost in excess of $500 upfront. Given the price tag of a well rounded legacy deck, most normal joes will be playing sub par decks in a field which necessitates a fine tuned deck. Because of this, if we are seeking to increase the playability to legacy, introducing more playable cards in a lower price bracket would probably be the best option. People have discussed reprinting legacy staples such as the dual lands but allowing for decks that do not need said dual lands is also a possibility.
True, introducing powerful cards into a stable format can create problems, but a stagnant format is also not optimal. While I hate comparing legacy to standard, a turn 4 bloodbraid into blightning followed up by a bit blast into blood braid into blightning is certainly a game winner and happens more than I would like it to, but that in itself is not a reason to ban any of the cards.
Granted, raffinity was just stupid and deserved to be banned, but I doubt that would be the case if any/all of the above cards were to be unbanned from legacy. Legacy in itself is a swingy format so it should not be surprising that there are a powerful combos and power hate for those combos. If that were not the case, then force of will should be banned because it makes or breaks most decks.
That is an amazing idea. I would love to go to a legacy tournament and not see FoW. Not because I play it or don’t play it or like or dislike it but its so boring and is a catch-all.
Empty my hand – Burning Wish —- FORCE!
Swamp – Dark Rit —- FORCE!
Survival of the Fittest —- FORCE!
Lord of Atlantis —- FORCE!!
Fireblast —- FORCE!!
Its so effing annoying that any deck i play can be crapped on by a foce or I can crap on anything if I play it. Daze is almost as bad but it sucks on the play. I’m all for Spell Pierce, Counterspell, Arcane Denial etc… Force is way too powerful in a format that usually revolves on a few key cards that can be Forced away.
If they printed Force in M11, no one would care, aside form the “cool” factor. Force in standard would be meaningless… I can sort of see how its possible needed in legacy to keep some things in check but I would love to see 1.5 w/o it.
So awesome call Conley, Grim Monolith and Illusionary Mask just got added to Legacy!