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43 thoughts on “Magic TV: Show #93 – The Banning of Jace & Stoneforge”

  1. Was waiting to hear you guys discuss this. LSV always level headed.
    Btw, thoughts on the M12 Jace?

  2. Sensei’s Divining Top could be an answer of a card that got banned because not that fun. πŸ˜€

  3. I have to agree as well. It sucks from a financial standpoint for the people who forked out the money to use them and now they cant but it is definitely the way to go by banning both cards. Great Discussion LSV and TSG!

  4. People talk like Jaces suddenly dropped to five dollars. It’s still an amazing card in vintage and legacy, and probably in modern, soon. It’s not gonna drop by that much, and all your other standard rares will rise in price.

  5. I’m not happy about the bannings. I just wish Wizzards had a more clearly defined criteria for banning cards. “People aren’t having fun,” or “Tournament attendence is down,” is a little too subjective. I know a card hasn’t been banned in 6 years but personally my confidence to invest in good cards has gone down, even if the chance is very low for any of them being banned. Jace, or any other good planeswalker is not kept in check by haste creatures but by cards that can effectively deal with permanents like oblivion ring and maelstrom pulse did when Shards was legal. Tap Out U/W sided out Jaces in the Jund matchup. Jace is broken but not degenerate. Bitterblossom and BBE were as well, but neither needed to be banned. Imo Wizzards needs to have a better pulse on their game. If they’re going to push planeswalkers then they need to give us efficient ways to deal with them.

    I think stoneforge was a bigger mistake as it’s a little too close to a “tinker effect.” Though I think they could have printed something that could have kept SF in check as well.

  6. @Erik: You should read the statement released by Aaron, he adresses a lot of your concerns. And if you don’t want to ‘invest’ in the game, don’t. No one’s forcing you to buy the cards.

  7. I think only sf should have been banned, it was too powerful but jace was actually fine, i distinctly remember lsv saying around last worlds that primeval titan was better in standard than jace. Also some people clearly did like the format with sf/jace, Mike Flores thouhgt it was the best standard format ever, and that U/R splinter twin was actually better than caw-blade , just food for thought

  8. Jamie, that is mostly nonsense. Jace is broken, and has a heavy stifling effect on the format. U/R Splinter Twin is definitely not better than Caw-Blade.

  9. Cost is NEVER, EVER, a reason to ban a card. You want to play competitive magic? Sorry bro you gotta pay for play with a card that’s a mythic in a small set.

    What you are really trying to say is that mythics shouldn’t exist.

    I beg to differ on tournament attendance *at least for me and my experiences*, my LGS had a store record breaking 57 player FNM the week before jace was banned.

    But to agree, I didn’t enjoy the deck, it was the best deck, and I wanted to win, we cannot blame the players for these cards needing to be banned, we can blame WotC for two things. Not making sufficient answers to jace, *like Pithing Needle and O Ring* NOT Phyrexian Revoker or Hex Parasite. Or for printing a powerful mythic in a small set with a short print run.

    Either way I think just printing SFM would have sufficed. But I understand partially why they banned jace too.

    I’m more upset that Jace, Memory Adept is a POS than that JTMS is banned. Oh well. Guess he’s still good in every other format πŸ˜›

  10. splinter twin is combo, which is inherently worse than a deck that can’t normally be prevented from executing its gameplan. the only deck that it loses to at all is mono red and the mirror, and the mirror happens way more often, and most mono red players are not as high caliber as folks who always play control decks.

  11. Pithing Needle and O-ring aren’t good enough. If you needle Jace blind, they play SFM and go to town with you down a card, or vice versa. The deck can play it’s own O-rings to answer O-rings. And Jace helps them draw more O-rings than before.

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  13. Jace has been a dominant force in standard much longer than it had to be. The same people who complain about jace being banned are the same people who are saying blue is a dead color, which is far from the truth as well.

    I don’t follow the argument that JTMS was a “skill tester” or allowed people to flex their ability as a player. To me, its like bringing a gun to a sword fight, shooting everyone, and saying that the gun makes you a better fencer. You have an absurd tool at your disposal that wasn’t as random as BBE and far surpassed the power level of bitterblossom.

    Patrick Chapin said it best in an interview with evan erwin:

    “Riding the power creep up feels so good. But it hurts on the way down.”

    If you don’t understand that and SFM were the boiling point for magic, then you may want to reevaluate the game and how you view it. I don’t consider UW Jace. UB Jace, UWb Jace Urb Jace and any other combination of colors that ran blue just for JTMS to be separate decks… Playing against them, you realize you’re still losing to Jace.

  14. @BertC – I agree about the “skill tester” factor. Jace wasn’t a skill tester. When you resolved one into a board that was anywhere close to even, you won an overwhelming percentage of the time, assuming the rest of your deck contained anything useful.

    folks might be talking about the skill it took to get Jace into play in a mirror match, in order to then win. In such instances I think “go first and don’t miss a land drop”, followed by “win the counter war” is the epitome of skill.

    So, Jace arrived, was flat-out better than anything, and went to 100 bucks for many months – in standard, which was supposedly a “low barrier to entry” format. It actually speaks well of magic that it took this long for so many folks to stop playing.

    We’ll just have to keep an eye on the next chase card. Though it’s going to hurt when the next batch of Chase mythics rotate out and I have to chase the ones that follow them. This spring I finally got a set of BSAs when they dropped to $11…. any bets on whether or not they are in M12? πŸ™‚

  15. @MHammet: The good attendance may be true at your local store, but Forsythe said clearly that the compiled data WoTC has showed that across the globe it was quite the contrary and attendance was dropping fast.

    Maybe the fact that your store was an excepcion to the rule is clouding your opinion…

  16. I’d absolutely love to see LSV run the gauntlet with Faeries v Caw-Blade, Jund and Affinity.

  17. @Scott

    That’s an awesome idea, just for pure fun and entertainment purposes.

    Do MTGO “Legacy” matches of:

    Caw-Blade vs

    Jund
    Affinity
    Faries

    Use stock deck lists from the time, I think it would be awesome to watch…

  18. Yes, I also love Scott’s idea! Just pitching dominating standard decks with lists from their prime against each other for entertainment value sounds awesome πŸ˜€

  19. If wizards only reprinted pithing needle in Scars, which i think its weird that they didnt… Or even make it standard legal now instead of banning jace and stoneforge

  20. @Monocromo:
    Is BSA really out of M12? I had heard Lightning Bolt was out. (Thank goodness for the Jace ban in that case- who want’s to live in a Jaceworld with no lightning bolt, even for 3 months?)

    major frowns for WoTC if BSA is out. She finally became affordable after Jace made her bad, so I got some copies. Now Jace is going away and M12 comes in and… removes BSA? What, am I supposed to try them in Extended???

    Meanwhile, more chase mythics are set to be spoiled with M12. Get yours today, if you want to compete in constucted over the next two years(!).

    argh.
    Time for some more Game of Thones – the board game. None of my leader tokens are Mythic Rare, in that.

  21. “Tournament attendance is down,” is a little too subjective LOL @Erik, you might want to grab a thesaurus and look up the meaning of subjective! XD

  22. There’s only one problem with Scotts idea. Affinity would completely dominate those other 3 matches. A good affinity list would almost dominate any other standard deck in history, that’s why they had to ban 7 cards to stop it…

  23. Although I do think that it would be fun for sheer entertainment purposes though. I just think affinity is too fast…

  24. I wonder if people who think the mirror match was not skill intensive have actually played it. Since the decks could attack on multiple fronts, the real test was knowing what to fight over, what to counter, what to kill, which piece of equipment to fetch up, which hands to keep, how to use Preordains properly, when or what to bounce with Jace, when to use Tectonic Edges defensively or offensively, and that doesn’t even take into consideration choices in deck construction.

    Of course Stoneforge was too good. Aaron Forsythe said it best when he compared the card to Tinker. Jace was probably also too good – but the comparison of gun to sword fight is not appropriate. Many faster decks were slaughtering Jaces prior to the printing of Sword of Feast and Famine (or Batterskull… wtf Wizards really?). Without Stoneforge to have Jace’s back, he has glaring weaknesses (to Red, for example).

    I support the idea of doing due diligence with the banning – in for a penny, in for a pound, as it were. I just wouldn’t want some people to confuse their outrage over Jace’s price tag (which is the hidden motive behind a lot of the criticism leveled at it) with criticism over power level. Rest In Peace, Jace.

    Stoneforge – don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

  25. My old store I use to play alot at had Draft on FNM. That’s it. I understand now with attendences having slipped why this is a great choice for FNM. There was a Standard Tourney every Tuesday but the core of their players came on Friday for limited. In hindsight this is the way to do it!

  26. @Chanelfireball I like the idea of seeing those decks face off against each other. Although I agree that affinity is probably too fast for all of the other decks.

  27. Magic exists to make Wizards / Hasbro money. Ban the card that your core audience thinks costs too much to be competitive. Problem solved. gg Wizards.

  28. Okay okay, people complaining about the value of their Jaces going down is a giant cop-out. First of all they’re only legal in standard for another couple of months and they would have gone way down in price then. Second of all, and most obvious, is that Jace will be played in extended and legacy as long as he’s legal (referring to extended obviously) and happens to still be one of the best things you can do in those formats so his value may get halfed by that and I seriously doubt that seeing as though WWK is out of print and he’s a mythic rare. Saying that your consumer confidence is down is a joke, you were gonna hold those cards anyway. What’s that? You were going to sell them at prime cost before they rotated? Yeah, people really pay prime price for a card about to rotate. They know his price will go down too, and probably better than you. He was oppressive and made some very fun and interesting cards near unplayable (i.e. Hero of Bladehold, Wurmcoil Engine.) I say they did the right thing although I would have liked to see it earlier.

  29. Thanks for the video. I appreciate your comments, and agree. Not only were the cards powerful, but coupled with the lack of answers to them – made them broken. the only match I lost in a tourny a few months back was – to Caw Blade (playing Boros)

    If jace was just another ho-hum mythic planeswalker, then he would be about about $5-$10 – the same price as any the other PWs (save Gideon (RIP Ajani) and Nicol Bolas). The fact that he was $100 speaks to his dominance and brokenness.

  30. @LSV: You are actually, in my opinion, one of the BEST examples, that playing Magic is about “having fun”! You show your love of and fun with the game in everything you do. (Pauper videos, Mirage drafts, puns in limited reviews, etc.) I guess, that’s why your audience like you some much… oh, and you’re one of the best players, of course.

  31. @MTV:

    Please, please, please – don’t do the Standard “in their prime” deck Gauntlet. I really don’t want to watch Jund annihilate Affinity over and over. It amazes me how quickly people forget seems just how strong a Bolt + Putrid Leech + Sprouting Thrinax + Bloodbraid Elf > Blightning on the Cascade curve is. In a vacuum, that’s exactly 20 damage by Turn 4 considering Leech pumps and timely swings.

    Suck it, Disciple.

  32. While I agree that the Jund list would probably win most consistently, I still think the interactions between the decks would be really cool to see. I vote for the Jund, Affinity, CawBlade, and Faeries Gauntlet as well. Seems like it could be fun to see and fun to play. Well, for a couple games at least. πŸ˜›

  33. Yeah..new standart…i lost almost 100 dollars and stopped playing after one FNM where i faced only splinter twin decks or valakut decks…and that sucks more than cawblade(playing against caw blade was equal and skill intensive,playing against Splinter Twin fells like “Are you tapped out?You lose..” and Valakut is sooo boring…)

  34. yeah definately run the faeries vs jund vs affinity vs caw blade gauntlet it would be awesome to see who reigns supreme

  35. Grgur Petric Maretic

    Definitely don’t run the gauntlet. It is just pointless.

    Affinity crushes all three decks easily, even without Skullclamp. We had Jund vs Faeries in standard anyways (Fae with Visions should be crushing). And we had Jund vs Fae vs Caw in extended this season.

    Moar drafts πŸ˜€

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