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Magic TV: Show #18 – Jedi Mind Tricks

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63 thoughts on “Magic TV: Show #18 – Jedi Mind Tricks”

  1. Something tells me that Humph often gets watered from a red cup…

    WRT videos without commentary, you might record the game without commentary and then add an audio track on top with some comments. I know the comments are probably the most helpful thing to viewers, so losing them entirely is probably not so good. However, if that is the tradeoff we have to make for more videos, so be it. (also, adding an audio track after the fact might make “other noises” less prevalent.)

  2. Other noises! Ha! Keep the commentary. I know what cards to draft, but sometimes my strategy in actual gameplay bites. Any help is appreciated!

  3. The punishing fire play really looks like misleading your opponent, I understand that wasn’t what you were trying to do at the moment, but by stacking his effects for him it looks like that’s the only way it can work, so if someone tried to do this intentionally, it’s much closer to lying than the croc example, which looks completely legal.

    “Talk and make some other noises…” Farting torch FTW! I think the idea about the commentaries after the games are played may be interesting, but I don’t think I would like it for the drafting portion.

  4. great discussion, guys.
    as i think you illustrated, the interactivity of playing against someone in real time & real life can’t be understated. sitting across from someone developing a strategy/board position isn’t just a matter of the cards; we’re also balancing emotions and body language (ours and our opponents’). it’s interesting that if we stop ourselves from being caught up in the moment, to actually pause game play for a period of thought, we can intuit (or deduce if you prefer) the motivation and cause for an opponent’s play. ben lundquist said that he always tries to avoid ‘auto pilot’ because it causes us to miss what’s actually happening. we’ll assume we know the game state and then make mistakes. (such as not seeing the feast of blood off an explorer’s scope or triggering landfall…) on the flip side, people are constantly trying to use tempo plays against their opponent, to elicit errors.
    is playing fast for the purpose of unbalancing your opponent a way of hiding behind a bad and/or flawed strategy (such as feast of blood…lol)? also, presumably, if we’re focusing on trying to “gain control of a match” then we’re not really putting all our effort into monitoring game-state. right? if this is occurring during testing (aka “training”) then are we teaching ourselves bad habits too? that is, are we teaching ourselves that paying less than 100% attention is okay?

  5. Great topic, I love looking at all the aspects of the game and pace is something to be aware of. Now I am going to go buy and read “blink” as well.

  6. I would love to see a more ‘natural’ draft video (possibly with comments added later although i know that is probably loads more work)

    But probably not as a regular thing. Who knows though. You guys really are on the cutting edge of magic strategy content, bringing it in ways noone else does and I dont think there is anything wrong with experimenting. Especially as you also take feedback from the comments.

    Channelfireball is definatly the best!

  7. @james I agree. Ive wondered about trying to develop a training course specifically targeted to this aspect of play. Im looking at putting together a training program that would mentally train a player to play at a high level. Hopefully I can incorporate ways to break bad habits as well.

    I think the greatest leap in a magic players play comes when he starts taking his entire opponents play into consideration not just what he knows via the board or peeks into his hand.

    Its one of the things I have become more concious of watching these videos. Im trying to elevate my game and training to do the correct thing is crucial to that.

  8. Stacking triggers for your opponent and implying that it was the only possible outcome is misrepresentation. Done intentionally, it’s fraud. I guess the wiggle room here is “did I imply that it was the only outcome? Am I cheating, or am I just the better player”? That’s a decision that both the perp and the judge are going to have to decide.
    The croc-block play, well, that’s closer to the “ok” side of this gray area you’re exploring.
    I do appreciate hearing about this sort of thing, so that folks who want to improve the game *against* such tactics can be warned.

  9. @chrisYoung
    interesting. did you see that we put together some online workshops for this very purpose? LSV is actually going to be doing our next one (schedule to be announced soon but tentatively starting ded 2nd). cheers.

  10. @ Richard

    you obviously don’t know the reference they’re making. Broodwich FTW!

    “eh..i don’t like tomatoes..so i took them off.”

  11. Videos without commentary would be really interesting. Not only would we get to watch you play, we would be forced to think through your plays on our own. Also, whatever it takes to crank out more content is worth it to me. 🙂

    Great stuff.

  12. You could just do the commentary while watching replays of your games. This seems like the best of both worlds kind of scenario

  13. Quick aside; Could you possibly start naming the videos rather than just numbering. I enjoy the videos but am not a regular watcher. Whenever I do watch them I’m never sure which was the last one I watched. Was it 16 or 17? Was it 13 or 14? Something concerning what y’all talk about, maybe. ‘Magic TV Ep 18: Jedi Mind Tricks.’

    Or how bout adding a description other than just ‘Mashi sits down with Luis’ on the main page. Thanks.

    Also, best videos on the internet!

  14. he should have been like “swing with vampire and crocodile” opponent makes the obviously play and then holds his card to consider before locking in. then your pretend to remember the first strike and swear under your breathe. now that is ninja

  15. Videos with MINIMAL commentary would be boss. Only comment on particularly important parts and zoom through the rest.

  16. Commentary on videos is very important to me. It helps me learn your thought process when you make plays or picks where it wouldn’t be obvious otherwise. Without commentary I think some of the videos would be a lot less interesting.

  17. Good to see that so many fellow Magic players are fans of Blink. It was an awesome read, and I’ve re-read it twice so far. There are actually tons of great books out there for Magic players looking to improve their game:

    Building Rapport: “How To Win Friends And Influence People” (Dale Carnegie)
    General Strategy: “The Art Of War” (Sun Tzu)
    Deckbuilding: “A Whack On The Side Of The Head” (Roger van Oech)
    Reads/Body Language: “I Can Read You Like A Book” (Gregory Hartley & Maryann Karinch)

    There are probably a dozen more on my office bookshelf that I could list, but that’s a pretty significant work load for now!

  18. I would like to see draft videos without commentary. If it means I get to see more than that’s a lot better. If there is any point in the video that you feel you must explain than you could just type it out for us to read.

  19. I enjoy the commentary a lot, I would hate to miss out on it. It helps understand your thought process, the choices you make in the game and basically it’s just entertaining to have something to listen to while you watch.

    Of course you could try one draft without commentary and see how people like it. Maybe we’ll love it, who knows.

    But if it’s a ‘choose now’ kind of thing, my vote is definately to stick with the commentary.

  20. I’d rather have commentary. In the commentary, you usually point out where you mess up, and so its not really that big of a deal. Also, it helps to know why you do certain things. If everyone wants to experiment with not having sound in a video, just mute one of his videos, and watch.

  21. Mashi, the joke about you being a better Magic player than LSV is extremely stale. For that matter, try to resist the urge to talk about yourself at all. It’s unprofessional, for an interviewer/host.

  22. I loved the content in this video, very well done, informative and entertaining.

    I see nothing wrong with the stacking triggers scenario. Even if LSV has intentionally and purposely implied that the triggers stacked in such a way for him to take advantage of, his opponent should have known the game mechanics well enough to realize it was not the case.

    I would very much like to see videos depicting “natural play” without the commentary, for both constructed and draft play. Keep up the great work! This is, in my opinon, by far the best site to visit if you want to improve your game.

  23. I have been trying a new style of commentary, and I think I like it alot more. I basically talk a little less, and I think that’s all I needed. My first impulse was to make sure there was no “dead air”, but I think it is much better for my game if I just talk when I have time and once I’ve figured out what I’m doing. I still get to talk about the important stuff, but I don’t talk the whole time. Hopefully that works!

  24. Naming Videos is a good idea.

    I’m not sure I’d like to see a natrual video….. though more frequent videos is obviously a good thing, if LSV made a play that I wouldn’t without any commentary behind it…….. how would I know what I’m doing wrong? Like, it’d make it way harder to learn from said videos.

  25. @ aje8 : But at the same time, figuring out for yourself why he played the way he did, and even disputing certain moves would make you a stronger player than if you had everything explained to you effortlessly.

    I see merit to both ways, I’m just playing devil’s advocate 😉

  26. I would enjoy videos without commentary. Sometimes the commentary is slogging through basic plays that aren’t interesting. Commentary for just the draft portion would be my vote.
    Lucas’s play was legit, and I am wondering why people think that it is even in the “gray area”. If his opponent doesn’t want to think through that part of the game it is no fault to Lucas. If you want to block the creature, block the creature. Lucas does this a lot, and I remember he did it to me once in an ACR draft:
    I enter my attack phase with a Vithian Renegades in play and Lucas’s board clear. I am obviously thinking about attacking, but I know that he has Ethersworn Shieldmage in his deck. I pick up my Renegades and before I have time to attack/not attack with it, he picks up his pen and reaches over to write down that he lost 3 life. Of course I attack at this point, and before blockers are declared, he taps 3 and plays the Shieldmage.
    This scenario isn’t that different from the Croc. I lost the game because I didn’t think through all possible outcomes and that is my fault.
    Lesson:
    Don’t trust Lucas

  27. I think two or three video sets with no commentary are a good idea, and then depending on the feedback more or fewer afterwards. Also, lsv’s above comment sounds attractive. Nothing wrong with dead air. Also, more videos is more better.

  28. videos w/o commentary is a fine idea as sometimes telling people why you did something does not make as much of an impact as them figuring it out by themselves. although if you could point out scenarios where one play would be better than the other it would help viewers in making further decisions as well as weigh future decisions in their own games.

  29. videos without commentary is a great idea. the ideal would be to just take footage of an event, and then go back and comment on it afterwords and point out thought processes and mistakes. i really, really enjoy all the videos, be it sealed, draft, playtesting matchups, or running through events in any and all formats. keep them coming!

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  31. I might suggest this: record a video without comments, but then take a quick pass over the comments to answer questions.

    Although I do think the commentary points out a lot when you say “ordinarily I would … but I think he might have X so I won’t.” Commentlessly it mught not be apparent that the thought existed.

  32. I would like to know the difference between that croc play (and stacking triggers for your opponent) and this that I read in an earlier Channelfireball article.

    http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/tolarian-academy-–-rumors-of-my-death-have-been-greatly-exaggerated

    “Q: My opponent controls a Putrid Leech and a Sprouting Thrinax. I cast Gatekeeper of Malakir with kicker, say "With kicker," and point to the Putrid Leech, attempting to trick my opponent into choosing to sacrifice it instead of the Thrinax. Is this legal?
    A: …In my opinion, by pointing to a creature, you are intentionally misrepresenting what your card does….
    Cheating – Fraud:
    A person intentionally and knowingly violates or misrepresents rules, procedures, personal information, or any other relevant tournament information.
    I'd say it's no real stretch to call the text of Gatekeeper of Malakir "relevant tournament information," and therefore I would say this is certainly not legal.”

    Isn’t how the triggers stack considered “relevant tournament information?” It seems to me that you’re misrepresenting the rules, to someone who wasn’t quick to call you out on it.

  33. why dont u just record it without commentary and then add commentary after, while pausing at interesting spots?

  34. I think vids without comments would be good if it could increase frequency. However, don’t toss the commented videos by the wayside cause I think they are helpful to newer players.

    As for Jedi Mind Tricks, it’s all part of the game. If you suggest something and you’re opponent doesn’t know better than they should read the rules closer next time. If they don’t know you can order triggers on the stack I guarantee that once it bites them they won’t forget next time.

  35. @Fin: if Lucas actually wrote down the -3 life loss, and tried to back up, I think you can nail him for cheating – actually writing down the life loss indicates that he made the decision not to block, and was (foolishly) playing his flash guy after blockers were declared, but before damage (or after damage but still within combat phase).

    However, if he just picked up his pen and held it, hovering over the pad of paper as if he were about to take damage, then you got outplayed, sad day for you.

  36. @MH
    Fin has told me this story irl and it appeared that Lucas just picked up his pen as if he was about to write down the damage but never actually wrote anything. Fin hadn’t declared any attackers yet and was thinking about whether or not to attack, remembering the Shieldmage.

  37. What if….
    You just record the videos, then commentate them afterward? Similar to a DvD commentary system.

    While I agree, the full comment videos are good, quick comment/straight draft videos could benefit much more to the community.

  38. WRT the Punishing Fire play, LSV never actually said, “your guy dies.” His sequence of plays was legal regardless of which trigger resolved first. Obviously, he is playing the Fire the first time in response to both triggers. Then, he brings it back and plays it and the first available opportunity (since he didn’t mention letting anything else resolve at that point). When the OPPONENT put his guy in the graveyard, that is (intentionally or not, presumably not) his indication that he stacked the triggers “wrong.” If he thought about it, he would say, okay, he’s a 5/5 for 4 damage on him, GG.

  39. It wasn’t fnm in Berkeley, if I am not mind fucking Fin.

    That being said in the Tampa incident (I should add the crocodile was 5/3) I feel like it was completely legit. I didn’t misrepresent or prevent my opponent from doing anything. I think the only reason to not block croc there is because you are afraid of a trick. I was simply trying to reassure him there was no trick (even though there is no trick I can think of that makes the block bad). Playing around Feast in Blood + Vampire was not really what I was worried about.

    I have a bunch of anecdotes from my first year on the tour RE: questionable plays (both from me, but also from a bunch of name pros) that I think might be interesting. If CFB is interested in it then I will give it to them otherwise it will become the Standard Facebook Note.

  40. The plays described in this video seems fine in a Grand Prix or PTQ, or on the tour. Here you opponent should know the rules, and if they let you make their decisions for them, it is their own fault. While legal, these plays are not entirely ethical, and as such should be avoided at FNM’s and such, at least in my opinion.

    Regarding videos, I really enjoy the current draft videos with comments, and I would hate to lose these. Just watching LSV play, maybe with comments added later, would also be good however. I think the right way to go is to mix it up, and do both, making some videos with commentary, and some where the focus is on the play. If this would make it possible to publish videos more often too, well, score!

    Also, I don’t think “that guy on the left” should stand back or be more passive. I really like the dynamics his behavior creates, as it keeps a somewhat higher tempo in the show, thus keeping your attention.

    Keep up the good work, CFB!

  41. Great video – really like the theoretical stuff. I like the videos with commentary, but seeing you play without would definately be interesting. Although, without the explanation, people might question your plays more.

  42. I, for one, would like to see gameplay from LSV without commentary, if for no other reason than to simply see his natural state of play. I mean, I know what the cards are, so I can usually see what’s going on.

    A very interesting show this week, almost a step-by-step “Jedi-Mind Trick” guide.

  43. There’s also the Grazing Gladeheart vs. Punishing Fire interaction: if you know your opponent has fire in hand, you can play a land and assert that you’re gaining 2 life. If the opponent plays out his fire in response, you can choose not to gain the 2 life and strand fire in his graveyard, because any shortcut you make is nonbinding past the point where your opponent deviates from it. (If the fire is already in his yard and you say you gain 2 life, and your opponent moves to recover his fire without responding, you can’t go back and stop him.)

  44. My favorite drafts are ones with LSV + someone with him.

    If it means you can pump out 3-5 drafts a week without commentary, I’d take that. If it would only result in 1 more draft a week, I’d rather you use your current schedule.

  45. do you guys podcast these episodes? if not, I’d be a lot nicer to be able to listen to these in transit than having to watch them.

  46. Pingback: » Channel LSV: Zendikar Draft #3 – Match 1, Game 2

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