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106 thoughts on “Magic TV: Show #39 – The Valuation of Mythic Rares”

  1. what’s up with the price on Lighthouse Chronologist?
    44$?!!

    Nice video though! Keep em coming ; )

  2. You are one lazy co-host, Shaun. Water me and put me in the sunlight once a week… Or I will be forced to kill you.

    -Humphrey

  3. Mythic Rarity worked fine in Multicolor World.

    It doesn’t work work nearly as well in Monocolor World.

  4. POOR HUMPHREY!!!!! Tristan Gregson, your a meanie 🙁

    Well anyway, I agree 100% with LSV. I hate the lottery style pack opening. It is almost impossible to make your money’s worth buying a box anymore. Even that wouldn’t be so bad, but trading for a chase mythic without another chase mythic has become impossible. I’d rather play the real lottery. Also, the fact that some mythics go for under five bucks you feel like crap opening one of those knowing you now decreased your odds of opening a better one.

    They should eliminate mythic rarity or just make all mythics four of chase cards. That would keep the general price lower; although regular rares would then REALLY be dirt cheap.

  5. Good to see this being discussed.
    Vengevine seems to have been put at mythic for the sole purpose of generating a chase card. The same can be said for the Kargan Dragonlord but that hasn’t panned out yet. The power level gap between Vengine and most of the other cards in Green, and in the set as whole, is huge. The net effect is we can pay $160-200 dollars to Vengevine into our green decks, or we can lose with our green decks more often. Other alternatives are to play Jund or Mythic Planeswalkers.

    Standard (outside of Jund) has never cost this much money to compete in. Even when Ravnica duals were sky-high, it wasn’t this hard to get what you needed for PTQs and Regionals.

    I think this sucks.
    thanks.

  6. So I don’t know if anyone else caught this, but on the top 25 movers of the week it has Lighthouse Chronologist at $44.99. Obviously a mistake. Just letting you know.

  7. cgr [Robert Henson]

    Haha, at the end I was like “Wait what’s this music? Did someone die?” Ah, poor Humphrey.

  8. Yeah, the fact that the majority of top decks outside of Jund run on Planeswalkers or other mythic rares is making Standard unplayable for me. I would love to play Mythic or U/W control, but its just impossible for college students (coincidentally one of Magic’s largest player bases). At least I have extended (for the next year or two).

    Opening a box of Worldwake I won at a PTQ and pulling 0 Jaces (But 2 Novablast Worms) just exacerbates the problem.

  9. I miss the old rarities. I’d rather go after a $50 Bitterblossom and get a few useful decent priced rares along the way than to hit $1 rares over and over trying to get a card that might not even be in a box.

    I stopped buying packs completely other than the occasional draft and even that becomes not worth it after 2 or 3 drafts when it gets old seeing the same stuff over and over because well, mythics affect that too.

  10. Vengevine is decent, not amazing though, it fits well in a number of decks. I’d say knight of the reliquary is leaps and bounds better than it. Before you saw the value of cards dictated by how good they were, now that’s not the case.

    The mythic rarity just means that many of us will be stuck playing jund or a RDW variant because the price to play decks like mythic is just much to high. $800 for a deck with many cards that will rotate in 6 months is just not a good investment.

  11. I think mythics should be used to balance limited. If a card is downright insane in limited (Like jitte) make it mythic! that way it won’t appear nearly as often….And often insane limited cards are not really that good in constructed (Drana for example)

    But then again, i don’t really care much about standard anyway – I’d still like to note that standard is still one of the cheapest formats, and currently jund is more or less made of commons and uncommons which makes it a relatively cheap and viable deck.

  12. Humphrey is going to come alive like shop of horrors and rip your face off if you don’t water him.

    Feed me Seymore

  13. The only deck I’m that interested in playing right now (in what has been a pretty stale format) is the RWU planeswalker list that did well in Atl. However, since 9 of the cards (Elspeth, Gideon, Jace) are almost $400 alone, that’s not going to happen unless I’m able to borrow them.

    It pretty much sums up the major difference in Standard now vs Standard in the past for me. Before I’d generally make an effort to pick up all the cards I’d need for the format, spending money on packs, singles, and trading. Since I had them, I’d play much more regularly in local tournaments.

    Now, because the expense is so high, I don’t try to pick up most of the rares. I do MUCH more borrowing instead. And because having to find all the cards needed from different players would be such a chore every week, I don’t play in nearly as many local tournaments and am not nearly as active in the local scene as I once was.

    It’s not that wouldn’t love to be, it’s just that the current trend in prices (mythics being a major hurdle) makes it much harder to play. My hobby has now shifted away from mtg and towards gaming like SF4, BFBC2, Halo, etc.

  14. Nevermind Humprey’s demise, Tristan should be fired for wearing the Dead Wings jersey… But don’t worry. If Humphrey dies, we’ll just rename him Vengevine and he can ‘get Mythic’ on Tristan when he gets reanimated.

    Speaking of Mythics, here is an except from Maro’s column ‘The Year of Living Changerously’

    “This now leads us to the next question: How are cards split between rare and mythic rare? Or more to the point, what kind of cards are going to become mythic rares? We want the flavor of mythic rare to be something that feels very special and unique. Generally speaking we expect that to mean cards like Planeswalkers, most legends, and epic-feeling creatures and spells. They will not just be a list of each set’s most powerful tournament-level cards.

    We’ve also decided that there are certain things we specifically do not want to be mythic rares. The largest category is utility cards, what I’ll define as cards that fill a universal function. Some examples of this category would be cycles of dual lands and cards like Mutavault or Char. That also addresses a long-standing issue that some players have had with certain rares like dual lands. Because we’re making fewer cards per set, in the new world individual rares will be easier to acquire because each rare in a large set now appears 25% more often.”

    The problem with Vengevine, Baneslayer Angel, and especially Lotus Cobra being Mythic is that it can be argued that these cards actually are “utility” cards, in that the decks that are in those colors MUST run them (often 4 of them) in order to be competetive. Or to state it another way, there are vast amounts of lost utility by not running them because you are not playing a card that almost any deck in your colors would want to play regardless of strategy. For example, Baneslayer Angel serves a universal function in any white based deck as ‘the finished that allows you to win any race with an opposing aggro deck’, so considering that almost any white based deck is going to want or need that should make Baneslayer Angel non-Mythic.

    Keep Mythics to strange or unusual cards that perform special things. Planeswalkers are fine (even ones that are 4-of tournament worthy). Unique fatties like Iona and Empyrial Archangel are fine. Unique spells like Conflux and Cast through Time are fine. Baneslayer Angel should have been out of the question.

  15. Magic failed. Back in 1994 comic book store kids could build any deck in type 2 they wanted for about 100 dollars. In 1999 I owned 4x each of all the rares of remote playability in both Tempest and Urza’s blocks for about $500-600 dollars. In 2003 I bought all Odyssey and Onslaught block sets for about $1200-1300 dollars. If you want even Zendikar block alone now, look to pay more than that. Then watch it lose half the value the second it rotates out of standard.

  16. Vengevine should have been out of the question too; that Wizards went so far as to hype it on Daily MTG is a real slap in the face to players. The existence of first-tier heavily Mythic decks, like Mythic.dec or the new All-American Control, should be clear proof that something’s broken. $400 is excusable for Legacy/Vintage, but absolutely not for Standard. It’s great for Wizards’ bottom line, but only temporarily; what happens when people quit playing competitively because decks are too expensive to build?

    My advice to players is to build without Mythics wherever possible. There are alternatives to most of them which are not Mythic. There are not, however, alternatives to staples like Jace and Baneslayer, though, and Wizards should admit they fucked up big time with both of them.

  17. Mythics weren’t an issue in terms of wild speculation in Zendikar because there were solid core set of constructed playable rares (fetchlands) that have all-format demand. So if you opened a box of Zendikar and only got the lower-priced mythics you’d still come out ahead with some fetchlands. It kept prices even across the board.

    Alara/Conflux/Reborn were a bit better about this idea too-cards like Maelstrom Pulse, Noble Hierarch, Knight of the Reliquary, and (in Alara’s case) multiple good Mythic Rares smoothed things out.

    Where M10 failed was that they reprinted the Lorwyn planeswalkers, who for the most part simply aren’t as good as the newer (more powerful) designs as competing Mythic Rares, and then printed a set of “dual” lands that only people desperate for fixing in standard would ever want to play. If the lands were playable in Legacy (even as a budget substitute for real duals) or even Extended (instead of shocks), then that set is much more attractive to buy and open in terms of expected value. Baneslayer was clearly undercosted and everyone should feel relieved that she’s a 5cc and not a slightly weaker 4cc because then she’d cost even more.

    Worldwake was just bad. Manlands need more universal usage (mutavault, mishra’s factory) to really see play at a point where they can command more than $5 a pop. I mean, we just recently rotated out the BOSS of colored manlands, Treetop Village, and he never went above that mark. Big mana-investment, multicolor manlands like Colonnade or even Raging Ravine aren’t going to get any higher than that. And the other mythics and most rares (save for one best card in the set, Stoneforge Mystic) in WWK were GARBAGES.

    Moral of the story-R&D needs to make sure that there are a good spread of constructed (in multiple formats, not just standard) playable rares and mythic rares if they want to prevent cards from getting to that $40-$50 a pop level. Rise of the Eldrazi so far looks like it’s going to shakedown eventually to a place in between ZEN and WWK, so maybe they are learning. There’s nothing amiss with the best card in the set being a $30 card. It’s when one Mythic hits $50 because the rest of the set is narrow-playable, hard to trade/sell junk that people get upset.

    tl;dr – R&D make better constructed (in multiple format) cards in the rare/mythic rare slots. Problem solved.

  18. I guess my issue is not so much with four-ofs as eight- or twelve-ofs, so to speak. Getting a playset of ONE chase Mythic so you can play Standard is arduous but not unreasonable. Having to get playsets of two, three, or even more, though, is a truly ridiculous financial impediment. While I realize that Magic is a CCG and money will always be somewhat involved, there are som rational limits as to just how much. It is infuriating to see local FNMs dominated by the guys who can justify dumping $200 on Mythic playsets with every expansion release; it literally gives the edge to wealthier players. That just poisons the spirit of the sport.

  19. Won’t ever happen, and some will say “you’re stupid, they would never do that, it would kill their business”, but I don’t care. What I want is an online version and video game console version that has an initial cost of $59.95 and is a $19.95 a month subscription, all cards available, from all sets up until that point, and each additional set is $9.95. No trading is allowed and you can only purchase cards by set. No tournaments for prizes on there, just access to all the cards. Maybe if profitable enough they could integrate every feature they wanted, but I don’t care if it was just for casual play. I think it could be big if marketed correctly. That is what I want. Maybe I am thinking Magic is more popular than it really is and this would utterly fail. Just trying to put out my preferential ideal while staying in the realm of possibility. Maybe I am a totally delusional but I think almost everyone who plays Magic now would want to own it, and certainly not everyone who plays Magic now is playing online or buying new cards.

  20. Also in your buy list you list Consume the Meek twice, once at $3 and right after at $4, guessing one should be Consuming Vapors!

  21. Much like previous posters have alluded to, the problem isn’t that one particular card is $40+ but more that the best decks require multiples (8+) of these cards. When you start putting up $180+ for only a few cards, there is a huge problem. I don’t really mind paying $50 for a Jace, but in order to use him to his fullest, I also have to play Elspeth ($45), Gideon ($40) and Baneslayer ($50). Most of these are 3-4 of as well. Not to mention I also need to get my hands on the lands and other utility cards which cost $5-10 a pop.

    The notion that the cost of rares is now lower because of mythics (the common argument for them) is totally irrelevant here when most of those rares aren’t being played. Of the 53 rares in ROE only 4 of them are being played in standard (counting Student, C Vapors, M Fall and Awakening Zone here). I am not willing to pay $40+ for most of the needed cards so the prices of 4 cards can be driven down.

    People also say that Wizards doesn’t benefit from the cost of cards in the secondary market. This is also just plain wrong. If people need a certain mythic because it is expensive, then they are going to open more boxes to try and get them. Its pretty simple really.

  22. Another note is that pre-order prices for playsets of Mythics are now being driven by people not wanting to “miss the boat” on the next Baneslayer/Jace, so what is happening in the secondary market is that there is a big run-up before and at release (and right after the first few events w/ new standard decklists) on the chase mythics/rares and the prices take a good while to spin down from those levels as more product is opened and becomes available to the market.

    So I’d say that the secondary market isn’t blameless for the high cost of some mythics, but at the same time it does have (as lsv pointed out) the effect of reducing costs of rares in the set due to the secondary market opening up so much product.

  23. @rlo

    Yes! Someone had to say it! I believe that prices are more controlled by speculators wanting to have the next big thing rather than the values themselves. Look at Lotus Cobra. Then, when people get used to paying $50 for a card it just stays that way. Its the secondary market mostly I’d say with a little to Wizards for hyping. Vengevine didn’t appear at the SCG 5k… so why is it still so high? Everyone is looking at it, but no one can get it working? My bet: crap.

    While I’m okay with Mythics in general, I hate the instead of ejoying opening a box every pack is like “if i don’t open chase mythic X the cost of him is greater than the box”.

  24. I wish you guys had brought up the Opportunity cost of these cards. For the cost of 1 Baneslayer or Jace, I can buy a new video game or go out to a nice dinner. You have to be incredibly dedicated to Magic as your primary or only hobby in order to drop that kind of money with every set. I definitely would not have finished 8 new video games by the time Baneslayer came out if I had spent all my time playing Magic on those new games.

    Also, SAVE HUMPHREY!

  25. After reading through all the posts I notice that this issue is being argued from a very narrow perspective. The people being raped for serious $s are those buying cards at the height of their popularity when the net deck that their in is the latest greatest thing.

    I remember a time not so long ago when people would gladly trade 3 Elspeths for 1 Sarkhan Vol. When M10 debuted Vampire Nocturnus could be acquired for a couple bucks and Baneslayers rarely exceeded $15. Anticipating the metagame and acquiring great cards on the cheap is one of the joys of a collectible card game. Furthermore it allows one to make a tidy profit or trade the Nocturnuses (you got for 8 bucks) to a vampires player for 2 Jaces.

    That being said, I must agree that Vengevine has no business being mythic. It dosen’t at all feel mythic in mechanic or flavor and the critcisms levied against it are valid in my opinion.

  26. Just make all Mythics Legendary and charcters in the book. Makes them more of a collectors item rather than a format playable card… makes more sense that way.

  27. Humphrey is the most important participant on this show

    cause

    HE NEVER SAYS SOMETHING STUPID

  28. @Dosa – You don’t have to be poor to not want to sink $500 into a standard deck for FNM. However, I don’t know that Mythics are really driving up the overall price of a Tier 1 Standard Deck.

    Look at Faeries – no cards were $50, but there were a host of cards that were $20 or more. Cryptic Command, Bitterblossom, Thoughtseize, Mutavault, etc. were all $80 a playset at least. This had to do with Lorwyn rares being “more rare” than current rares.

    If Jace, Baneslayer, et al. were just normal rares they’d certainly be cheaper, but then you can expect fetchlands/manlands/m10 duals to see a hefty rise.

    LSV’s point about the packs being less fun to open is totally valid though. Some people may like the “all or nothing” feeling, but I feel like I get more enjoyment out of opening 4 $10 cards than 1 $40 and three $1 cards.

  29. If wizards is going to just print every single planeswalker as mythic, they should do the same with Legendary creatures and other legends, and keep all the non-legends at rare or below. That makes sense as mythic when taking flavor into account, and keeps the prices down a bit because most of the time legends are run as 3 of’s or less (there are occasionally exceptions due to the power level of the card).
    If this were the case initially, They’d print more legends per set, which would make everyone playing EDH and any casual format really happy. It would have produced a 25 dollar baneslayer as opposed to the 50ish that she is, which would make pretty much everybody happy. Jace would still be super pricey, which probably makes wizards happy. And since there would just be an overwhelmingly higher amount of rares than mythic, that could potentially mean that the random person that has fun winning at fnm, but also likes to pay rent and eat, might actually have the chance to win with the deck he/she wants to play, and not the one they had to settle on.

    okay, I’m ranting on the internet…time to stop typing.

  30. I have found that mythics have made trading alot harder. No one wants to “trade down” their jaces for man lands, fetches, day of judgement or other played rares. This has created a situation where, if you dont already have a money mythic for trade, good luck trying to get one.

    BTW the day Vegvine was spoiled, Near Death Experience was shown on the mothership.

  31. @chrisk

    Jace M. was at peak price before he was even released. Ditto for Cobra and Vengevine. I don’t think the speculation game will work anymore; Baneslayer was a watershed moment. From now on, unless Wizards alters its rarity policies, it’s likely that every set will have a $30+ chase Mythic and we’ll all know about it long before the sets are released.

  32. I saw a comment that mentions not buying packs. I don’t either (other than the rare occasional one), or the prerelease/release sealed/draft. Otherwise I only get packs if I win them at FNM.

    The primary reason is that 9/10ths of cards just aren’t worth any money whatsoever.

  33. core arguments AGAINST mythics (not really in any particular order):

    1.) one $60 card where the rest of the set is junk = not good
    2.) unbalanced rare/mythic prices = booster pack lottery
    3.) many decks run multiple playsets of $40+ mythics = too pricey to play mtg
    4.) trading becomes very hard because nobody wants to trade down
    5.) some card that are printed mythic that should not be (BSA, Vengevine)

    Core arguments FOR mythics:

    1.) cheaper rares (and none of them playable)
    2.) they are cool!!! (…)
    3.) they make wizards more money (until they lose their player base)
    4.) casual players like them (good for them…)

    Biased, but true

  34. Have to admit I’m not liking the direction the distribution of rares/mythics is going recently… having friends opening Kozileks and Gideons and finding myself with a bunch of 50-pence rares is depressing to say the least.

    Opened two Near-Death Experiences (as if one wasn’t bad enough) in a draft and wanted to smash my head off the nearest brick wall… =p

    I’ve stopped buying packs now, I just restock my rare collections with prizes from FNMs and stuff I pick up through drafts. I love drafting, but it doesn’t seem worth spending the £3.50 for a booster just for the off-chance of hitting it big.

  35. @Nicol Bolas: Agreed on everything there aside from BSA… it feels much more “mythic” than Vengevine for me.

    That and it’d probably be crazy for the drafting environment if it was a rare…

    I remember them saying Drana would’ve been mythic if they didn’t want her as the foil rare for the B/R intro pack. Seems like a much better candidate for it than Vengevine though, in all honesty.

  36. Where should I send my donation to help save Humphrey?

    Seriously though, mythics are what we thought they were, and we let wizards off the hook!

  37. “Lol @ at poor people.”

    putting a price tag on tier 1 standard decks such that people feel like the investment required is too great just to compete is not healthy for the format or the game in general since most people start constructed in Standard (an aside-at the current deck prices, might as well just go Legacy, at least then you don’t have to buy in every year for a tier 1 deck)

    Again though the problem isn’t so much the concept of Mythic Rarity as much as it is a glut of unplayable jank at the rare/mythic rare level in M10/Worldwake and (potentially) RoE. If there are a lot of good cards in the rare/mythic rare slots that can sell for $8-$10, then so much product will be opened to meet demand that the Mythic Rares will only command a $20-$25 tops price tag at the very most.

  38. Seriously, I thought Tristan Shaun Gregson was dead for a second there at the beginning. Not cool.

    Just to reiterate, glad you’re still alive and kicking Tristan. If you take LSV down for throwing another card at you, I think everyone would be fine with it. I’ll even help (like you need it).

    I have to stop drinking 40oz’s. I don’t POST..?…!

  39. The spread of price between rares and mythics does create a huge problem as stated in the video. No one is willing to trade normal rares for mythics, even if you give them monetary loopsided deals 🙁

  40. I saw no such “Save Humphrey” facebook group, but definitely think someone less lazy than myself should make one. Save the plant! We want you on the show Tristan! (Especially when you sport the jerseys of such fine sports institutions. Go wings!)

  41. Please save Humphrey he does not deserve to go out with a whimper. Please water him and let him see the sun once in a while the poor thing thats just torture to a co host. It is seemingly worse than Howard Stern sometimes treats his co-hosts. Please save the poor thing nothing deserves to go out like this.

  42. Hey guys,

    I’ve tried every magic podcast/video available, and I’ve found yours to be the most informative and the most entertaining on the net. And although you like to joke about your production values, they are actually very high for the field.

    Keep up the good work
    -BBK

  43. Standard being this expensive to play is bad for the game. It was already the most expensive format over time with the constant rotations. Now it’s top decks cost as much as or more than extended.

  44. Ok just read 60+ posts and FOR ONCE EVERYONE AGREES.
    It’s very rare on a forum so it’s worth mentioning.

    Now that everyone agrees, I’d like to know if wizards is aware of his player base frustration and if some kind of player Rep or whatnot like LSV, PV or the magic show dude would open their mouth and talk to wizards, sends a petition or open a facebook page

    Like it has been mentioned several times, standard is utterly expensive and frustrating. I didn’t buy any box of WWK and ROE because of the lotery reason. Still not sure how card businesses manages to make a profit out of the packs they open.

  45. Comment by Nicol Bolas – May 4, 2010 @ 2:05 pm:
    “Also, the fact that some mythics go for under five bucks you feel like crap opening one of those knowing you now decreased your odds of opening a better one.”

    This is so not true. The odds of pulling a top dollar mythic stay the same after pulling a crappy one. The odds also stay the same after pulling a top dollar mythic. Heck, the odds even stay the same after pulling 7 top dollar mythics in a row.

    You must have never had any lessons in mathematics/odds.

    I pulled 7 Ajani Vengeants in 10 drafts in a row once.

  46. I also think that a lot of great cards are getting swept under the rug by attention being paid to mythics. I honestly believe that there are some great decks out there that haven’t been discovered because people have been too busy figuring out how they can build the most expensive decks possible and have them be good, but how good are they? I’ve played with my mono w ctrl deck against mythic, boss naya, jund, U/R/W ctrl, grixis, spread ’em. It cost me about 125 tix to build and I’ve beaten every major million dollar deck in the format (that’s not to say I win every time, I only built this a couple days ago and haven’t fully finished testing it.) I believe there are decks out there that can be competitive, people are just too focused on all the hype cards, maybe we need a little bit more of “doomblade guy” in the format. I kill baneslayer angels over and over again every day and my deck has several ways to win and the ability to control the board until one of them goes off. It’s not the greatest deck out there, but it’s pretty good, and getting better with testing. So if you can’t afford the amazing $240 playsets, look around at some of the other cards in the format, you might be surprised at what you can come up with.

  47. Humphrey adds more useful information to the show than Tristan. Fire Tristan and hire some one to water Humphrey.

  48. @ Ult1mate

    It’s funny when you bash somebody else’s math when your the one who is wrong. What your saying is not correct. Like if you where to flip a coin and get tails then the odds that on the second flip you would get tails again would be 50% ? while that seems logical, if you have studied statistics probabilities you should now it is not correct. For instance there are 4 possible outcomes for flipping a coin twice; tails/tails,heads/tails,tails/heads, and heads/heads. you go into a two flip process with a 25% percent chance of hitting tails twice. the same goes for opening packs.

  49. Im ok with the high prices of chase rares. means more people are playing, also prices of cards will only support what people will pay. so dont blame wizards for the price of cards. only way they could lower the price is to over print cards. sure magics probably 7 times more expensive to day than in onslaught.

    anyone remember the chase rare deck white control?
    4 exalted angels, 15 dollars per and that was alot.
    4 wogs 8ish per.
    and so on nothing else really over 10, fetches went for around 6 dollars when in standard then.

    also its not just inflation price card wise. the US dollar has inflated a bit since then. But if you cant afford the card, then guess you cant buy it. thats how capitalism works. dont see people complaining about designer clothing.

    I think mythics main problem is the emphasis on tournaments in an ever changing game. If it was just a game you played every once in a while and got all the cards in an expansion in one box like typical card games, it would be different. But since this is a CCG, with a heavy tournament scene, thats not how it works.

  50. Humphrey must be saved!
    Also, mythics are stupid. It’s like if teams played 82 basketball games a year, and 1 out of every six games, at random, candy fell from the ceiling and into the fans’ arms. Only you don’t know what candy it’ll be. Maybe it’s candy corn (Thraximundar). Maybe it’s Jolly Ranchers (Lotus Cobra). Maybe it’s a bag full of mini snickers with the special Halloween dark chocolate (Baneslayer).
    I don’t know what basketball has to do with that metaphor, but i think we can all agree that random candy is pretty stupid.

  51. Sharks 3 – Wings 0

    Your jersey disgusts me, TSG.

    you live in sharks territory, for god’s sake.

  52. The problem with Mythics is that they are “too Mythic” making them appear 20%(as an example) more often will have the effect of “normalizing” the prices: Rares will be rarer(and subsequently worth more) and Mythics will Be more common (and worth less than they are now). It Used to be that sets had 5+ Ten Dollar Rares, and 10+ Five Dollar Rares, Now they have 5 Five Dollar Rares, 1Fifty Dollar Mythic and 2 Ten to Twenty-Five Dollar Mythics. It Has the following effect: instead of opening packs and frequently getting cards that are worth more then the pack itself, The Vast Majority of packs are “duds.” You Could Open A whole Box Of Rise, and never get a card worth more than 5 Dollars. That is Unprecedented and Unacceptable.

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  54. I think the largest isssue with mythics is that people treat them so… well… mythicly. I understand that they’re good cards. But I think there are very good decks that don’t involve the use of any mythics, or only use them in a splashy sort of way. I currently have 2 standard decks, both of which wins me my local FNMs fairly often (usually win every third week; 16 people on avg). One is my kor equip deck, which matches up surprisingly well against RDw, Jund, and Vamps. This deck uses a total of 6 cards worth more than a dollar (4 SFM and 2 collars). The other is my budget vamps deck. This deck is slightly more expensive, but still contains no mythics. It does quite well, even besting the supposedly upgraded version of the deck more than half the time.

    I think people really need to open their eyes to the possibilities of decks without mythics being competitive, it would be healthier for the metagame, and for all of our wallets if they would.

  55. Watering Humphrey is fine. It’s the fact that he needs to fertilized with shredded BSA, Jace2 or Power 9 that’s killing him.

    The crazy prices are what keeps me from playing anything competitive. Limited’s great. Wizards needs to keep one or two playably competitive budget decks in Standard. For years that was burn, but it’s less viable now.

  56. @Ult1mate; that may be true for drafting, but if you know anything about print runs you know that there is an upper limit on the number of mythics it is possible to get while opening a box.

  57. gigglioronomicon

    Mythics were a mistake.

    If mythic rarity exists and planeswalkers exist, planeswalkers pretty much have to be mythic which automatically creates a situation where we routinely get $50+ cards due to planeswalkers generally being such powerful cards.

    With this self-defeating system in place, they’ve managed to compound the problem even further by printing baneslayer, lotus cobra and now vengevine at mythic making things even worse in terms of cards just costing too much money.

    Wizards: axe Mythic and chalk it up as a learning experience. All it does is create an anomalous and restrictive market whose end result is the gross over-inflation of deck prices in standard.

  58. @ Dosa-
    Wow. Just wow. Either you really are a completely soulless jerk, or you simply have a terrible sense of humor and were trying to be funny. I’m favoring the latter. The fact is that most legitimately poor people don’t really have enough time and money to spare to even bother with magic, except as a very casual player. And if you think it’s somehow normal for a person to want to spend hundreds of dollars a year on trading cards, think again. I am not at all “poor,” and I don’t have any interest in shelling out a vast amount of money per card.
    Bottom line- please try to voice your opinions in a less dismissive, socially unacceptable way.
    @ T-
    No, you’re wrong. Your example doesn’t actually enhance your point. The probability of flipping tails 20 times in a row is the same as the probability of flipping 10 heads and 10 tails, or 11 heads and 9 tails. So your example is meaningless.
    And in any case, it’s simply not true that opening a mythic rare in a pack decreases the likelihood of opening another in a subsequent pack. That’s only valid if there is a distinctly finite number of each card in circulation. Since such a huge quantity of cards (yes, even mythic rares) is printed, the only constraint on opening, say, 5 JTMS’s in a row is the fact that JTMS’s rarity means that it is only in 1 out of 80 packs. But as far as any individual player is concerned, Wizards prints an arbitrary number of boosters, which means that the probability of opening him is 1/80, or about 1.25%, regardless of how many packs you open containing him. Once you actually get to the point where Wizards stops printing packs of Worldwake, that point might become valid, but, that’s only when the number of unopened packs in circulation from a given set drops into the low-mid triple digits.
    So yes, it is less likely that you’ll open two mythics in a row than it is that you’ll open a mythic followed by a rare, or some other combination. But it’s simply not true that opening a mythic is actually less likely if you opened another mythic previously.

  59. mythic bad rare coins flip odds stupid 50$ Gideon, the mind sculptor, vengslayer statistically speaking

  60. Blame it all on Tarmogoyf. Not even the $100 Tarmogoyf of today. I’m refering to its price after the regionals where it exploded in popularity, peaking at near $40 then. That one card suddenly made it acceptable for standard rares to be valued above $20 in the first place.

    Think about before Futuresight, what was the last card to carry a greater than $20 price tag? shock lands were high but not 20, cranial extraction, jitte, and pithing needle all remained below 20 in their prime… maybe I’m missing one but honestly I can’t think of any…

    Once vendors found out they could get away with it after Tarmogoyf, things spiraled out of control to the present day market of multiple $50+ standard chase rares. We took the bait and have been getting reeled in ever since.

  61. Blame it on Demographics.

    What has happened with mythics is Wizards has realized that the people who play magic aren’t largely comic book store kids anymore. A sizable portion of the market are people who have been playing on-and-off for over 10 years, are in their late 20’s or early 30’s are out of university and have a reliable source of income. They play tournament magic as a hobby, and can afford to go out and buy the major mythics.

    These people don’t even have to be most of the tournament scene, if you can get these people buying $300/month that makes up for a heck of a lot of people buying $30/month. And while $30/month can be a huge buy for someone with a primary source of income being an allowance, $300/month isn’t as high to someone making $50+/hr, with large working hours, heck its probably 1 day’s post tax income a month if you’re working 8 hour days at that rate.

    Lastly, most of the people who complain about mythics aren’t quitting the game, they are building one deck instead of having a collection of decks, or switching to legacy (if they have some of the old cards), or switching to draft.

    I personally think the biggest danger is that Magic will end up like Bridge over the long run, where it has a core demographic in one age group, and a hard time attracting people outside it.

  62. Maybe LSV should just have 2 moderators in the same show, and see if Humphrey comes back good as new, since it is as least as awesome as Vengevine.

  63. “It's funny when you bash somebody else's math when your the one who is wrong. What your saying is not correct. Like if you where to flip a coin and get tails then the odds that on the second flip you would get tails again would be 50% ? while that seems logical, if you have studied statistics probabilities you should now it is not correct. For instance there are 4 possible outcomes for flipping a coin twice; tails/tails,heads/tails,tails/heads, and heads/heads. you go into a two flip process with a 25% percent chance of hitting tails twice. the same goes for opening packs.”

    This is partially correct, but extremely misleading.

    Suppose I flip 20 coins. I will generally get 5 HH, 5 HT, 5 TT, 5 TH, where ‘HH’ refers to ‘heads heads’, and so on.

    So now let’s suppose I flip one coin, and get a tail. I can now hit two of the four possibilities: TT and TH (two have been ruled out; this is what you missed or ignored in your post). Looking above, you can see that the likelihood of TT is the same as the likelihood of TH.

    So I do actually have a 50% chance of getting another tail. You chance of getting a tail is not affected by what you just got.

  64. A small amount of throw up from the sight of a wings Jersey off the ice. Thanks.

    Feed the damn plant.

  65. I suggest to divide the t2 in “spoilered” and “unspoilered” …where the spoilered are the decks with the “30 € or more” cards (baneslayer angel, vengevine, elspeth, jace the mind sculptor or gideon jura).

    LOL, it’s a joke but it’s sound almost fair.

  66. @jacob:

    replace “failed” with “succeeded” and you just hit the nail on the head.

  67. alot of comments so someone probably already said this but in case they didn’t…….

    I am surprised you guys didn’t touch on mythic rarity’s importance in limited formats.

  68. I actually did some writing on this – but look at it this way, Mythic as a deck will cost you 680+, and UWr Control is well over 600 as well. Traditionally, the top deck expense wise will run you about 300 or so according to past trends, and this past year has *shattered* that with doubling.

    Jund fits in that area, making it ‘reasonable’. I personallly have a budget I have to hold to for Magic, and it says I’m not playing any blue or white deck in this format due to cost. How long is it till more people have to say the same thing?

    Standard had a hidden entry barrier to cost – the constant re-investment necessary into it – and now has a clear open one. I cannot believe that in any way this is good for the game and can only hurt it in the long term.

    Other then Tarmogoyf, the chase rares in most format would hit $20 or at most $25.

    They are significantly hurting the accessibility of the format with these choices and I think that longer term, Magic will pay a significant price for these cards as people will not be able to play.

  69. There is in fact a Save Humphrey group. LSV is a member, so if you’re his friend, you can link to it.

  70. Wow, truly a 100% consensus on the fact that mythic rares were a mistake. I think this is first time I have EVER seen something like that about magic the gathering. Now, this is only a small percentage of the mtg player base; but it is probably the percentage that puts the most amount of their time and money into magic.

    Wizards should really take a look at this and think long and hard on keeping mythic rarity around any longer.

  71. @ Nicol Bolas
    Agreed.
    Like I said earlier, some facebook page should be created like the I hate Mythic rares page or someth like that. would get thousands of fans in no time

  72. I like having some money rares in the format, as it makes drafting the rares after a draft more rewarding. Getting Vengevine, Jace, Baneslayer etc… for the cost of a draft has helped me out considerably.

    I think the cost for manlands is going to go up, as WWK is a smaller set which people are ditching to draft RRR. Jace will probably jump too. Note how Baneslayer went from twenty to fifty in such a short period of time.

  73. I Don’t see the need for mythics, it just makes the competitive game more unaffordable for most.
    I understand that some cards will always be more expensive than others, and that happens naturally by different demand levels. Printing less of these good mythics while keeping the same demand from competitive play just makes them so much more expensive and more frustrating for the average player.

  74. @Caleb; I love money rares; just not money mythics. Five to Eight $20-$25 cards per set makes for a much healthier trade/booster-opening environment than one or two $40-$60 cards and the rest going for under five bucks. Lorwyn and Morningtide were perfect. Even Zendikar wasn’t that bad with all the fetches floating around (although the market did get flooded after a while.)

  75. How would this be: Mythics are only allowed to be Legends and Planeswalkers, and every Legend/Planeswalker must be Mythic, except on very rare occasions (e.g. another Legendary Matters block). That line is cut-and-dried, right? And people will only very rarely actually want 4x of a legend or PW in their deck.

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